Stephan Bodian on the "Pathless" Path to Awakening
How progressive spirituality diverges from oter paths, including Buddhism.
Posted May 31, 2026 | Reviewed by Tyler Woods
This is part two of a two-part series.
Stephan Bodian is a gifted spiritual teacher whose work has brought wisdom to countless contemporary seekers in an accessible and deeply transformative way. Founder of the School for Awakening and author of several influential books—including Meditation for Dummies (with more than half a million copies sold), Wake Up Now , and Beyond Mindfulness —Bodian is widely respected for his rare ability to bridge timeless spiritual insight with modern psychological understanding. Trained as a psychotherapist, Bodian has pioneered a uniquely skillful approach that integrates self-inquiry, non-dual realization, and practical psychological insight. We recently spoke from his home in the Canary Islands about his newest book, Infinite Awakening: A Guide to Nondual Wisdom and the Pathless Path , which offers a comprehensive guide to the “pathless path” of spiritual awakening.
This is the second installment of a two-part conversation.
Mark Matousek: The renowned spiritual teacher, Jean Klein, whom you were lucky to spend time with, was one of the great arbiters of the direct path. How does the so-called direct path differ from other paths?
Stephan Bodian: Most traditional spiritual paths are progressive. You have to keep monitoring the changes. Am I getting better now? Am I getting more aware now? There are markers along the path, and you're monitoring your progress. The direct approach is more about dismantling the one who is trying to improve, seeing into the unreality, the ephemerality, the emptiness of the one we take ourselves to be. It teaches us to open to the possibility, the very real possibility, that in this moment, you can wake up spontaneously through a pointer, through a question, through a meditation.
MM: There are no stages of awakening on the direct path?
SB: There are stages of awakening but they occur spontaneously. We’re not trying to cultivate them or orchestrate them. In the new book, there’s a whole chapter on the stages of awakening. The first stage is to recognize that I’m not my thoughts . That’s actually an awakening. For many people, it’s a major stage. The next stage, which is probably the biggest shift, is that I am the awareness of my thoughts. And then I discover what that is, this openness , and I become more familiar with that as my essential nature. That’s the Kenshō, the experience I had with Jean Klein, the initial shift.
Then the other stages are various levels of getting to the point where we realize the nondual, the truly nondual, which is that thoughts and the objects of thoughts, self and other, inside and outside, subject and object, are not two . That’s the true meaning of nonduality, that which is seeing and that which is being seen are inseparable. There’s just the one gazing into itself.
MM: This can sound vague and grandiose to the uninitiated ear. Folks might ask, what about individuality? What about uniqueness? What about the human creature?" But nonduality does not suggest that we melt into this giant vat of nothingness. Distinctions remain, but the underlying unity takes precedence. Is that correct?
SB: Absolutely. I think that’s really important. It’s one of the hardest things to talk about, because in the Eastern traditions—in Mahāyāna Buddhism and also in the Advaita Vedānta tradition—there exist what are called the two truths, absolute and relative, universal and individual. At the absolute level, you are consciousness itself. There’s only consciousness, only being. But at a relative level, we are also people , individuals acting in the world with our own gifts, our own talents, our own conditioning that we’re working with, always at an individual level. Both things are true simultaneously.
MM: I've noticed a tendency to put the absolute above the relative, which seems to me like a huge mistake. It’s a problem when spiritual seekers start believing that all of the physical world is simply an illusion.
SB: Advaita Vedānta is known to do that. Fortunately, Jean Klein was influenced by the nondual tantric tradition of Kashmir, which holds that Shiva and Shakti are inseparable. The unmanifest and the manifest, the emptiness and form, are inseparable. One is not better than the other, and they cannot be divided. If we’re caught in form but don’t see the emptiness of it, then we’re going to be seduced by form. On the other hand, if we get caught in the absolute, we spiritually bypass. We can’t have human relationships and can’t navigate the world until we realize that the relative and absolute are inseparable.
MM: Is that what you're referring to when you talk about each moment of life offering us a "choice point?" That we're choosing to focus on ego or a more transcendent view?
SB: Interesting question. Yes. Who’s choosing, of course, is the deepest question. At the same time, there’s a way in which we’re being asked to lean in to one or the other. If you’re having an argument with your partner, you’re going to lean in to the relative and live that aspect, that part of your life. If you’re sitting in meditation or having a quiet moment, you’ll lean in that way. We’re constantly going in and out, and they’re constantly interpenetrating one another. The absolute is the essence. Consciousness is the fundamental reality. In that sense, I would say that’s where the emphasis lies.
MM: That’s the choice point?
SB: We’re more likely to keep remembering that consciousness is the fundamental reality, to keep coming back to it.
MM: Let's talk about discernment on the spiritual path. It's hard to be discerning in a field where we know so little. Is discernment about trusting our gut? Looking for danger signs?
SB: I think you’re right. We can’t be really deeply discerning until we’ve developed some wisdom, and the wisdom requires that we embark on a journey, on the path. Meditate, be with a teacher, listen to teachings, do self-inquiry, whatever it is. Discernment develops over time. That’s why people do get involved with teachers who take advantage of them and try out paths that may be not appropriate to them. That’s all part of the journey.
MM: A lot of people get stuck, though, don’t they?
SB: They can get stuck there. Certainly. I’ve been with teachers who weren’t very wise and caring and compassionate. I got stuck there for periods of time and learned a lot from it.
MM: In Infinite Awakening , you write about how trauma affects the awakening process.
SB: I go into a lot of detail in the book about this. Trauma can be a hindrance, but it can also be a gift. I do emphasize that as well. People who have been traumatized are suffering, usually more than most of us, and suffering is a great motivator. A deep desire, a deep wish to free themselves of that suffering, drives them along the path. That’s a beautiful thing.
When we talk about letting go of our identification with the separate self, which is the process of waking up, people whose separate selves have been threatened as children may not want to let go. They will be holding on for dear life. The idea or even the experience of 'no self' can be terrifying for them. When I had that powerful awakening with Jean Klein, which was blissful and expansive and freeing, I kept cycling back into deep fear . I actually would sit on my cushion, and I’d go down into the ground of being, and everything was just expansive and open and no identification, and then all this terror would come up.
I had no idea what was going on. That dropping into the ground of being was terrifying to the part of me that was holding on for dear life, not to be destroyed. I was abused as an infant. I thought my life was over. I didn’t realize that when I was going through those experiences, but I’ve subsequently learned what my life as an infant was like, and the rest of my childhood to a lesser degree. It can make waking up, the process that you’re wholeheartedly seeking, quite scary.
MM: So, psychological wounds need to be addressed psychologically. We can't just meditate our traumas away.
SB: Yes. It's the difference between waking up and growing up, as some people have described it. We’ve got to work on both, because they interact and support one another. The freer you are, the easier it is to see these patterns and not get identified with them. And the more these old patterns are seen through, the easier it is to stay awake and deepen your awakening. I really emphasize that in my work with people, as both a therapist and a spiritual teacher. They work very much hand in hand.
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Mark Matousek is the author of nine books and founder of The Seekers Forum, a community for self-inquiry. Visit him at theseekersforum.com.
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This article is part of the Bringwise Psychology Journal — daily insights on human behavior, mental health, and personal growth.